الاسطر التاليه تحتوى محادثه تمت مع بعض مبرمجى الغروب بوت لودير
وفيها ما هو مطلوب لدعم اللغه العربيه لبرنامج الاقلاع غروب
اقرا وأخبرنى عن رأيك
the nekst lins is an irc chat in the Chanel of #grub so read
22:30 marco_g, hi
22:32 okuji, hi... I was wondering should we add one SoC project propsal... about internatinalization support... correct rendering and formatting for foreing glyphs...
22:33 okuji: You rock! :-)
22:46 daChaac: yes, i18n support is a good topic
22:46 marco_g: :)
22:50 even if students doesn't apply for it, it would get some publicity that we need someone to do that work :)
22:50 :-)
22:50 daChaac: however, we have a todo list on the wiki
22:50 okuji, yes we have... but I think this SoC page would have larger publicity
22:50 BTW, RMS mentioned this:
22:50 It is ok if you talk with student candidates that you already know are
22:50 capable, to plan projects with them. ?That is a good way to produce
22:50 projects that are really likely to get done, and done well.
22:50 daChaac: so you are welcome if you want to talk about your own topic! ;)
22:50 ok,ok,ok... I write the application :)
22:51 I was just wondering if I write one (hopefully) good application instead of multiple not so good.
22:51 It might have better success rate on google's random generator :)
22:51 or lottery :)
22:51 daChaac: in which project are you interested the most?
22:51 daChaac: I mean, of the projects participating the SoC
22:52 okuji, I am actually interested in two projects... one is this ATAPI/IDE project and one is to continue on menu interface
22:52 okuji, I saw one ATAPI/SCSI book in our Uni's IT departments special library
22:53 okuji, it looked quite promising... I also noticed one protected mode book :)... never seen books like this elsewhere :)
22:55 okuji, which one of those two projects you see most valuable ?
22:55 daChaac: I can't select one..
22:56 okuji: I'm planning to apply for the raid/lvm project
22:56 Jeroen: great
22:57 I already wanted to implement that when I would have the time to do it...
22:59 both of those has pro's and cons... I think the menu work is more straight forward... basicly design and implement... CD-ROM support is more like adventure :)
23:00 I could easily play with it VMware, but it much harded to debug.
23:00 daChaac: don't talk about VMware :(
23:00 I think qemu works fine for testing grub...
23:01 okuji, what's so wrong with it :) ?
23:01 daChaac: we promote free software
23:01 okuji: do you meen i18n support in grub
23:01 daChaac: don't forget that grub is a part of gnu
23:01 zamaliphe: sure
23:02 okuji, yes I am aware of it. But I still don't see anything wrong using otherwise good product. :)
23:02 okuji: do you meen that we cane boot with arabic grub gfxmenu /msseg file ?
23:03 doesn't http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/ clearly explain what's wrong with non-free software? :)
23:03 okuji, I just need to use too often windows to do my normal tasks so it is not pleasant to boot to another OS... using vmware is fast to launch linux (or almost any other OS) and do instanty work there too.
23:04 * Jeroen stopped using windows years ago
23:04 zamaliphe, it would be a plan to add support to render correctly arabic glyphs
23:05 <-- nyu has left this channel.
23:05 zamaliphe, we alreday have utf-8 support in GRUB to allow us to use unicode internally for texts... only the renderin and different langauge support is missing
23:05 daChaac: even if so, I don't want to hear proprietary software very much
23:05 okuji, ok.
23:06 daChaac: rms accepts using proprietary software to improve free software, so I don't object to using proprietary software
23:06 daChaac: I thought rendering already worked!?
23:06 daChaac: but if we talk about proprietary software in public, it looks like promoting prorietary software
23:06 okuji: He does?
23:06 marco_g: yes, he did
23:06 okuji: As a long time plan to replacing it?
23:06 marco_g, yes I can render glyph to x,y position... but it doesn't say where next glyph would be rendered
23:07 marco_g, glyphs can go to any direction :)
23:07 marco_g: ultimately, proprietary software should be replaced
23:07 marco_g, and there are some rather odd rules in some languages
23:07 daChaac: Oh, left to right, etc.
23:07 daChaac: to use arabic in consol and non support soft wear we use fribidi libs do you think it cold be added to grub some how ?
23:07 okuji: I want free software VHDL tools :-(
23:08 zamaliphe, fribidi is one solution... one would need to integrate it to grub
23:08 marco_g: write them :P
23:08 marco_g: this area is still very hard with free software :(
23:08 Jeroen: LOL
23:08 Jeroen: Do you know how hard that is?
23:09 Jeroen: Will you give me some machine to make ASICs for testing? :-)
23:09 And a new brain. :)
23:09 okuji: Yea :-/
23:09 okuji: It's the only thing I used non-free software for last year :-/
23:09 It's funny...
23:09 marco_g: ah, really?
23:09 daChaac: what you think else needed ?
23:09 marco_g: I use proprietary software every day
23:09 At some new course at the university I need some new software tool...
23:10 I was depressed because I thought it was windows only... He already said I can not use it at the university and should do it at home.
23:10 And it turns out to be free software written for UNIX. :-)
23:10 okuji: Wow :-/
23:10 zamaliphe, I think it would be good to have truetype (or freetype) support too.. there are libraries for this too...
23:10 okuji: What do you use?
23:10 marco_g: I can't say it here :D
23:11 marco_g: I am a GNU maintainer
23:11 windows?
23:11 * Jeroen ducks
23:11 okuji: You can curse about it and make it sounds as bad as it is. ;)
23:11 --> Mnabil has joined this channel (n=Mnabil@196.205.192.21).
23:11 --> ADminS has joined this channel (n=Whisky@81.10.17.154).
23:13 zamaliphe, even if there are libraries for those it would be requirement it be integradable to grub. so I it means that there must be some conversions made so it can be used boot time in grub.
23:13 zamaliphe, you don't need to master hardware details in that work because we have some level of abstraction in here.
23:14 zamaliphe, but the problem we have is that we don't know how foreigh languages work so we can't really work on those issues to get them right.
23:15 zamaliphe, that's way we need people to do that work that has experience on those "special" languages.
23:16 Mnabil: do you have some thing to say
23:17 ADminS: do you have some thing to say
23:17 zamaliphe: any thing i for arabization , i can work on it ?
23:17 I can give you a picture what is currently supported
23:18 nope
23:18 http://jumi.lut.fi/~vjaaskel/grub2/grub2-bitmap-test2.png
23:18 whether we use fribidi or not, I'd appreciate help from native speakers
23:18 fribidi?
23:18 the current developers do not speak arabic or hebrew IIRC
23:19 marco_g: GNU Fribidi
23:19 from this picture you can see that there are fonts loaded, one render US-ASCII, one render hiragana (japanese), and the one latin-1 character
23:19 good work , japanese and swedish ?
23:20 Mnabil, japanese and finnish :)
23:20 daChaac: oh! we can say scandnevian
23:20 :)
23:20 Mnabil, but swedish uses same glyphs :)
23:20 daChaac: So how's the picture loader doing? :)
23:20 yes :)
23:21 marco_g, still need to work more on that... :)
23:21 Oh :)
23:21 I want png support :p
23:21 marco_g, I just have to allocate some time for it :)
23:21 okuji, actually I looked that too :)
23:21 and jpeg
23:21 daChaac: how hard?
23:22 daChaac: I know the feeling :-/
23:22 I had some holidays and planned to hack.
23:22 But I visited friends for about 6 days and had no time :P
23:22 okuji, for libpng it is easy to strip writing support, they use setjmp for error handling... but could be day or two to get it integrated
23:23 okuji, that doesn't follow anyway near the coding convention :)
23:23 daChaac: what you need from Arabians to do
23:24 zamaliphe, if we have one unicode (utf-8) string, there should be some rules how to render it correctly. so this glyph ordering is the hardest part I think.
23:24 they all will be glad to help in Arabic support
23:24 zamaliphe, there is currently implemented support to render simple glyphs to screen.
23:24 another thing is the availability of arabic fonts, I guess
23:25 we don't have an idea what kind of features there should be specified for glyhs
23:25 I don't know if the unicode font includes arabic
23:25 hmm... I could check that out... but we don't have enough information in font file to at this point I think
23:26 http://www.unicode.org/charts/
23:26 here is the unicode chart
23:26 let's see... 0x0600->
23:26 daChaac: the information should be written in the website of gnu unifont...
23:27 gnu unifont :) ?
23:28 I only have cryborra's unifont.hex
23:28 daChaac: it's the gnu unifont
23:28 ah
23:28 coverage: 62 U+0600..U+06FF:Arabic
23:29 12 U+FB50..U+FDFF:Arabic Presentation Forms-A
23:29 140 U+FE70..U+FEFF:Arabic Presentation Forms-B
23:29 there should be some
23:29 it says: I added the Basic Arabic presentation forms on 1998-10-30.
23:30 I have no idea if it is enough or not
23:33 BTW, about partition numbering, what should I do?
23:33 we can migrate to 1-based, but this would take much time
23:34 zamaliphe, so basicly we can render left-to-right fonts, but after that we don't have information what to do. This is where we need help.
23:34 we must check a lot of code for this
23:34 Yeah
23:34 daChaac: arabic is right to left
23:34 And we will need some guideline, I guess.
23:35 okuji: People are always confused that GRUB is different in that regard.
23:35 okuji: there are already some bugs in the Apple partition map code that I need to check (it doesn't list all my partitions)
23:35 tschwinge: I know
23:35 daChaac: and need Arabic shaping to work correct
23:35 okuji, hmm... I was just wondering... is the MBR code one block larger than 512 bytes?... I think it would be possible to add support to define where to load files more precisely... like ata0, atapi0
23:35 hollisb: are you going to fix it?
23:35 zamaliphe, this is where you help us :)
23:35 okuji: yes, some day
23:36 okuji: Are there reasons to start counting by zero?
23:36 I.e. why did you (?) do so at first?
23:39 *** You are now known as zam.
23:39 --> You have joined the channel #grub (n=zam@82.201.231.53).
23:39 *** The channel topic is "Welcome to #grub, the channel to discuss both GRUB Legacy and GRUB2. Don't ask to ask. Just ask! | Please read the (Official!) manual (http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/grub.html) and the FAQ before asking. | Wiki: http://grub.enbug.org".
23:39 *** The topic was set by youpi on 02/12/2006 07:30:21 PM.
23:39 Channel freenode-info if you need to send private messages, please register: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#privmsg
23:39 Eww.
23:39 :-)
23:40 daChaac: you can't, generally speaking
23:40 *** Channel modes: no messages from outside, no colors allowed
23:40 *** This channel was created on 02/26/2004 10:09:57 PM.
23:40 daChaac: the BIOS only loads the first sector, so to load more, GRUB needs to know the drive number
23:40 okuji, If you known from what device and partition you are booting... you can just load couple of extra sectors, no ?
23:40 okuji, isn't this passed from BIOS ?
23:40 daChaac: this is possible only when you boot from the same drive
23:40 tschwinge!!!
23:40 daChaac: this is not always true
23:41 tschwinge: What's up? :)
23:41 marco_g: This and that and everything.
23:41 ;-)
23:41 marco_g: Today, I have mostly been busy with the SoC.
23:41 <-- zamaliphe has left this server (Nick collision from services.).
23:41 *** You are now known as zamaliphe.
23:41 tschwinge: Oh, nice :-)
23:42 <-- hollisb has left this server ("leaving").
23:42 marco_g: What about that one: I mentor you for the Hurd and you mentor me for GRUB? ;-P
23:43 tschwinge: lol
23:43 zamaliphe, you can get grub2's code from CVS, if you have any questions regarding how other video code or font code works I would be pleased to answer those questions.
23:43 tschwinge: I doubt that will be allowed. ;-)
23:43 tschwinge: It would be funny, though. ;-)
23:43 zamaliphe, I think the grub-devel mailing list would be correct place to place those questions so other devs also know there is ongoing work and can give their views on some issues.
23:44 <-- wobster has left this server (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:44 marco_g: Indeed. But let's just forget it again. ;-)
23:45 tschwinge: :-)
23:45 tschwinge: I have been thinking a bit about libchannel...
23:45 hm...
23:45 tschwinge: I hate you for that. ;-)
23:49 *** You are now known as zam.
23:49 Nick Nickname already in use. Trying zam.
23:49 Notice -NickServ- his nickname is owned by someone else
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23:49 CTCP Received Version request from freenode-connect.
23:49 Notice -NickServ- assword Incorrect
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23:49 *** The channel topic is "Welcome to #grub, the channel to discuss both GRUB Legacy and GRUB2. Don't ask to ask. Just ask! | Please read the (Official!) manual (http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/grub.html) and the FAQ before asking. | Wiki: http://grub.enbug.org".
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23:49 Thomas gives sane advice though,.
23:49 Yes.
23:49 And yes.
23:49 *** Channel modes: no messages from outside, no colors allowed
23:49 *** This channel was created on 02/26/2004 10:09:57 PM.
23:49 Oh.
23:49 <-- zamaliphe has left this server (Nick collision from services.).
23:50 Oh?
23:50 *** You are now known as zamaliphe.
23:50 okuji: I sent you a mail some months ago or so where I asked you about an email address of a Japanese guy who once worked on GNU Mach...
23:50 tschwinge: did I reply?
23:50 No.
23:50 tschwinge: oh
23:50 tschwinge: ask me again now :)
23:51 Let me find it...
23:51 tschwinge: I get too many messages every day, so I can't manage to reply to all the messages
23:51 Sure.
23:52 I'll /query you, ok?
23:52 ah I find the mail
23:52 UCHIYAMA Yasushi
23:52 If the address is still effective, it should be uch@nop.org
23:53 but maybe not effective any longer...
23:53 I found uch@nop.or.jp, but that one didn't work.
23:53 tschwinge: then I don't know
23:53 I haven't contacted him for some years
23:54 Ok. Thanks nevertheless. :-)
23:54 I can ask somebody if necessary
23:54 okuji, oh... btw. which one is your first name ? Okuji ?... I ask this because you have them backward in wiki :) ?... at least instructions showed that FirstLast should be used.
23:55 tschwinge: one possiblity is uch@NetBSD.org
23:55 tschwinge: he has a mail address in netbsd.org
23:55 Ah, ok.
23:55 I'll give that one a try as well.
23:55 tschwinge: What is it about?
23:55 daChaac: define it as you wish ;)
23:55 lol
23:56 okuji, I still have a some memory that family name is written with capitals in where you come... so my best guess is that is backwards in wiki :)
23:57 daChaac: the same question was asked too many times in hurd, so I even wrote a FAQ on my web site
23:57 okuji, oh
23:57 daChaac: I don't have the page any longer though
23:58 daChaac: ask jeff bailey. he asked the same question to me. ;)
00:01 hmm.. I might have mixed it myself then :|... I found some entries from edict
00:02 evening
00:02 actually it were jedict
00:02 anyone experimented with intel macs and grub2?
00:02 heya Johan!
00:02 jrydberg: Okuji is working on it \o/
00:03 * marco_g is playing: Passenger - Circles
00:03 jrydberg: You might like this too :)
00:03 my gutfeeling tells me that EFI and GPT will lead the way for grub2
00:03 jrydberg: ACK
00:04 at least GPT, now when here is bootcamp
00:04 jrydberg: wait for two more weeks
00:04 jrydberg: We have a GPT implementation for a very long time already. :-)
00:05 * marco_g heard a lot about bootcamp but doesn't really know it.
00:05 okuji, have you won on free time slots lottery ;)
00:05 okuji: you hacking it as a stand-alone EFI binary?
00:05 jrydberg: sure
00:06 okuji: how well will it integrate with the MacOSX boot selector?
00:06 okuji: will rEFI be required?
00:06 daChaac: well, it's hard to find free time for me, but I can manage it
00:06 jrydberg: you mean refit?
00:07 okuji: ah, yes. sorry.
00:07 jrydberg: of course, no. grub is a full-featured boot loader ;)
00:08 okuji: so how will the final result look?
00:08 refit?
00:08 marco_g: refit.sf.net
00:08 jrydberg: it will be similar to grub on pc in a sense
00:08 jrydberg: but I can do much better, since EFI supports more than BIOS
00:08 okuji: except you can already in EFI-images, such as the OS X bootloader?
00:09 err
00:09 can run
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